TELESEMINAR SERIES FOR COUPLES AND PARENTS OF YOUNG CHILDREN AND TEENS
TELESEMINARS FOR ESTRANGED PARENTS
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10:49 am
I to am having a hard time understanding my relationship with my 28 yr old daughter. I was a single mom divorce her father when she was two. Remarried when she was eight. She was not happy about that and did everything in her power to sabotage it. My husband stayed cleared of the parenting with her and let me help her. Counseling, talking, and just being there was not enough. Her father was not there for her at all. She would stay with him every other weekend (he lived with his parents) He would go out at night, than sleep until noon. Occasionally he would take her fishing, ( because that was what he enjoyed). Never did he ever ask her what she wanted to do. He never acknowledge her birthdays or Christmas. So basically he was just not much of a father figure. She decided at about 11 that she didn't want to share his weekends with him. So she stopped. Child support was not there anyway and I just wanted what was best for her. If that was what she wanted we supported her on that. She started to get in trouble at school at 13 she meet a boy ran away a couple times. We started to think maybe we should move. At age 15 we moved out of state. She absolutely hated it and some how got on a plane went back to her fathers house. Her grandmother said it was ok for her to stay for awhile and finish that yr of school. I agreed, THAT WAS MY FIRST MISTAKE!! She got pregnant had her first daughter at almost 16, almost lost her to the state, we stepped up to take temporary custody. She got her back and moved back home to us. At 19 she met a guy just out of jail. We were very concerned but kept a close watch. Wanted to believe that maybe he learned his lesson. ( we all make mistakes) Wanted to believe people can change. THAT WAS MY SECOND MISTAKE!! She lived with us we helped her with our granddaughter she got her first job. We bought her a little car. Still seeing this guy, she decided to move in with him. We were devastated, but could not stop her. So we kept the lines of communication open. She quite her job and moved to the next town, he was working here and there but no stable job. She got a job and than got pregnant with their second daughter of which he was not a part of because he was running around town and doing drugs. We were with her at the hospital and after. They separated for awhile. At that time I inherited some money and perchased a four bedroom home fixed it up and decided to rent it to her for five hundred a month. THAT WAS MY THIRD MISTAKE!! She lost her job he came back with no job and still a drug problem. We still kept the lines of communication open. Helping her with what we could. From the time she moved out she has had help from the state with child are and food stamps. I have mixed feeling on this because I feel that he has lived this way his whole life from what he has told my husband and I, but we have worked hard for our money all of our lives. And I have instilled these values in my daughter from the start. We are just a middle class working family. I don't think it is wrong to help people when they have had a lost of job or whatever, but people who take advantage it is just wrong!!
We feel he has taught my daughter how to work the system because of what he was taught from his family, we have a real hard time with this. It has taken us awhile to figure this all out because my daughter doesn't tell us everything. So she got another job and got pregnant with their third child, he is still not working and and running around town doing drugs. The rent is barley getting paid the heat bill has not been paid, she is always trying to get assistance with one thing or another. I have paid her phone bill for three yrs now just so she could have a phone in case of emergency. I have paid her heat bill this winter 600 . 00 so they would not be without heat. He comes and goes as he pleases and they fight all the time. She says she loves him, and I know love can be blind but this is CRAZY!! I have tried talking to her and supporting her she doesn't want to hear my imput on anything, she just says I know mom, Let me learn from my own mistakes! What does a mother do, sit back and watch this man use and take and take from her. He always comes back because he know she will let him in. He has a warm house to live in, food on the table and clean clothes to wear. What more could he want. Well she has lost her third job and has had her forth child, of which he was not there still running around town and doing drugs, we were at the hospital and we took care of the other grandchildren. I finally got her to get birth control, of which she would not do before. THANK GOD FOR THAT!
Now two yrs later she is still not working is drinking every day and he is still coming and going. We have cut out any conversation with him since he accused my husband for having sexual feeling for my daughter. She was so upset about it because my husband has been very good to her and we were devasted. Where did he get that idea. People say its the drugs taking, but we are done with him. We have tried to be there for them through their difference and we are always there for the grandchildren but this has just turned us sour toward him. He needs to get help for his drug addiction and my daughter needs to get help, but neither of them fill they need to. My daughter said she doesnt need a stranger telling her how to live her life. So through the years I have helped her so much I have recreated a monster. We just helped her get a bigger car for her growing family and co-signed for a small loan, she was promising to get another job and was promising to pay us back. She was paying the loan the first few months and then couldn't so we paid just to keep our credit up. We sold her old car to cover the balance on the loan. I just have to say that I appreciated everything my parents did for me. My mother was my best friend. I would never think of not giving back if they helped me with everything. A loan was payed back with no questions. They didnt have to do those things for me. It's out of love and concern, we just want the best for our kids, but don't take advantage. If you want to give them something with nothing in return that fine, but If you agree before hand that it's a loan and needs to be paid back, there should be no questions. So now my daughter is without a job and is not even looking for one. Can't pay the rent and doesn't even have money for toilet paper, but she can pay for her cigarettes, he is still coming and going. Now the washing machine is broken and she can't do laundry and wants me to buy her a washing machine. I want her to try harder to get a job and let go of this guy who is using her and my grandchildren have seen enough. The
oldest doesnt even want him around. I love her very much and have tried to help and support her in all of what she has wanted but she has to see that this is going nowhere. If anything think of your children. Now she avoids us and our calls. We take the grandchildren quite often and now she is avoiding that as well. We are worried for her and them. What can we do?? She is an adult, but is so childish in some of her thinking. If the kids miss the bus to school she won't even drive them, she just let them stay home. They need there education she will agree but won't do anything. She is very angry and mean to everyone, has a huges chip on her shoulder. I can't find the nice girl she once was. She has harden her heart. Somewhere in there is a nice loving girl with a big heart, who would do anything for you. I think that's what got her in this place in the first place. For twenty yrs it has been a struggle but I have not given up. But now I am in my fifties and it hurts to see her hurting and not making any positive changes. She won't call me anymore just even to say hi. She won't answer If I call or go by the house. I can't keep the house If she doesn't pay the rent. But I can't but them out in the street ether . What do I do?? My mother always said we have choices in life, we can choose to do right or choose to do wrong… I am so scared… I love them so so so much.
She
8:37 pm
May said:
May, let me give you honest emotions in this early December. This I have done for my son and his family (wife and two beautiful children): treated them to lunch over a period of many years ; helped financially to the tune of over 300k and many other niceties too many to mention. I do not smoke , drink or do drugs but I have been accused about it and much more . I have made good investments, keep working /busy at 72, still married to the mother of this good boy of a son. After we got a bit mad at one another I called asking if we could patch things up and he went into a mad rant accusing me of this and that , that I was an abuser that the 20 years he was with me were the worst ever. To that I responded that since he was not inclined to make peace all was left for me to do was wish him good luck son. I have intention of getting even by reducing or eliminating giving while living and even the hereafter God willing for he was my son once but not now. Now I do not feel really bad about this, others can have the sympathy; I rather take out this bully trash that happens in life and still live it up without it . Want to wish all the good parents the best; do not give up to these bullies, its all they are, and rub their face in the dirt until they cry uncle.
8:10 am
I am now and have always been willing to accept my being "part of the problem". I am not, however, willing to accept that I am all of the problem, which seems to be the directive. Conflict always involves at least two parties and everyone needs to accept his/her share of the responsibility.
9:45 am
May – that has been my experience as well, which is often discredited by estranged strangers who cannot accept that all estranged sons/daughters are not the same.
all my support,
upsi
11:05 am
I suspected as much.
I didn't fit the cookie-cutter image you like to have of EKids as evil, simply walking away with out a word, for no reason. So no reasponse. Of course not, because it might just mean your kids did the same, tried and tried and tried, and most estranged parents can't cope with the very idea that maybe they are actually part of the problem and not helpless victims
May said:
11:20 am
Another Healing Mom,
You asked me about other mediums or approaches. I don’t suggest that anyone should have to “read between the lines”, and no Estranged Adult Child is speaking in code. I can only speak for myself so I’ll give you my experience.
I often hear the Estranged Parents bemoan the lack of phone calls, or face to face contact. In my own case I tried reaching out and communicating with my parents in a number of ways. I tried face to face contact, dinner, lunch, family visits. Didn’t work. I tried phone calls. I tried emails. I tried letters. I offered to go to a counselor with them, together or separately.
I was oblique, I was blunt, I, as one point, laid out, step by step, with examples, the issues I had, we had, had not been resolved.
None of it worked. And after YEARS of trying, and being beaten down almost daily, with questions, accusations, problems, emotional blackmail, and yes, I considered it emotional abuse. I finally took the final step and decided, after a lot of thought and soul searching that they were killing me and I needed to protect myself.
Most of us try over and over and over. And none of the Estranged Adult Children I have even spoken to have just walked away for nothing, and without trying. Generally without any of their efforts being acknowledgement
I was prepared for and would have welcomed honest emotions. I was ready for tears, or defensiveness. But it was beyond the pale into abusiveness. After a while of any time you say anything that doesn’t toe the line they dissolve into tears, or react with anger, or “disown” you, you begin to realize that it is a pattern of manipulation.
In my case, I walked to protect myself, and my husband and my child.
10:17 am
Jules said:
Hi Jules,
I read this forum a lot but have never posted before mainly because I am not estranged from my kids but have been through a very difficult time with my eldest daughter in her late teens.I come here because I can relate to people's difficulties but I feel a bit like I'm not "valid "enough to post because there is no estrangement though there is still some distance and I feel like this is a very special place where women and mothers expose their innermost,profound pain and hurt and one needs to tip toe in such a place with the utmost respect.Like you,I was estranged from my own parents for about two years though it was never formally acknowledged by any-one in my family.I had an extraordinarily hard time leaving home and becoming independent,I kind of put off growing up through the teen years because it was just too hard and complicated I think.I had good reasons for it too.
There are a lot of estrangements in my extended family and in previous generations.My family is a blended one not because of divorce but because of death,I think this was more common in past generations.I think there are problems common to both situations.
I found this forum because I read the piece on Dr Coleman's work in the New York Times and I love his compassionate,common sense approach and also think he is a pioneer in an area that needs a lot of understanding,work,research and help.I don't think there are literally any other opportunities for parents,in particular mothers to explore the difficulties they encounter in a serious way.So much lip service is given to the job of mothering/parenting and so little real,helpful attention.
I just wanted to say how much I respect your profound courage and honesty in sharing your story and your feelings,how much I appreciate your wisdom and your ability to help others on here.There is so much sadness and pain,I actually can't believe it sometimes.I appreciate every-one on the forum who courageously shares their pain and their story and helps each other.It is a VERY special place.
9:01 am
I left my parents after enduring years of emotional abuse from my them. It stemmed from problems with my own child, who has autism and other mental health issues (my younger child has no such issues.) my parents blamed me for causing my sons illness, and never missed an opportunity to criticize my parenting, or be angry at me because of the side effects of his medications (weight loss or gain, etc.) they wrote me letters regularly for years, about how my kids will grow up to hate me bc I am such a terrible mother. My inlaws, on the other hand, were never critical, and I am close with them to this day. I tried for years to set boundaries, to explain, to defend myself, to believe that they were doing what they felt was right to protect their grandchild. But after years of being called a terrorist, a dictator, a hitler, of being told that so and so is a 'real mother, unlike you,' I had to preserve my mental health for the sake of my own kids and my ability to raise them, I ended contact with my parents. But I still let them see the kids weekly.
3:38 pm
Karen,
Before I post any thougths, I want you to know that I est. myself from my dad (for a year) when I was younger AND I have been est. from my daughter for 5 years (just recently beginning to reconcile). So please do not take any comments as one sided. I struggle with the confusion & guilt from both situations & would like to find an answer & help anybody else experiencing est.
I truly am sorry about your situation with your parents. There are good & bad parents & there are good & bad kids. Without you going into details, I felt your post was understandable. Having difficult parents is hard to deal with. If you have maturely tried to improve the situation, than you have a right to protect yourself.
As I read some of the other posts, I saw lots of hurt. When the pain is raw & you are being accused of ???? your defenses come up. Being the accused parent has its own set of demons that will not let you rest. It is unimaginable pain.
I did not even bother to read Upsi's stuff & I doubt I will.
Having a perspective from both sides, I want to know "what is the answer?" I have great guilt about both situations & have a strong desire to find an answer. I am coming to grips with understanding my role in both problems.
My biggest dream is that each side will begin to learn & focus on a solution. We can all accuse others of treating us unfairly& have lots of examples to justify our behavior.
THE ONE THING I KNOW IS THAT PARENTS NEED THEIR KIDS & KIDS NEED THEIR PARENTS.
As a daughter, I wish I wish I could go back & learn to truly DEAL with my dad & my situation. I wish I would have known how hard it is to be a parent. I wish I would have known that I needed to be honest with my dad (even if it hurt him at the time) & shared what I needed from him. Not in an accusatory way, but in a way that would encourage my dad to take efforts to be better to me. I wish I would have asked my dad to meet me half way. I wish I would have appreciated some of my dad's traits instead of being irratated by them. It really is all about perspective.
As a mom, I wish I would have not done the thing that hurt my daughter so much. I do not have any regrets about how extremely hard I worked to change for my daughter.
After re-reading my above comments, I am shocked that I cannot express more ways I could have improved my est. relationship with my daughter. I have taken responsibility for the est. with my dad but I take even more responsibility for the est. with my daughter. So why cannot think of anything I could have done differently to help the est. with my daughter? I am thinking that it is because (for 5 yrs.) I have had absolutely NO control over anything involving the est.
So…when are books & ppl going to start helping parents from doing things that cause estrangement?
And when are books & ppl going to start helping kids deal with difficult parents?
That is where we need to look. Not at how terrible the other is, but at how we can keep or salvage relationships between kids & parents and parents & kids.
11:52 am
Karen, Upsi, and May,
In a vein similar to Another Healing Mom's thoughts and in the name of broadmindedness and wanting to be treated respectfully and equally as adults, I would like to offer another suggestion. Instead of limiting yourself to resources that categorize, blame, criticize, or demonize parents–i.e. Secunda's "Why You and Your Mother Can't Be Friends", and McBrides"Will I Ever Be Good Enough-Healing the Daughters of Narcisstic Mothers", "Toxic Parents", or "Mean Mothers"–consider looking at other viewpoints from other authors and books such as "I'm OK, You're My Parents" (Atkins), "Hidden In Plain Sight"(Grosskopf), "When Parents Hurt" (Coleman), "Generation Me" (Twenge) and "The New Don't Blame Mother"(Caplan). Just because they don't all agree with your current view of things does not mean they should be ignored or discounted.
No one is denying that there are truly nasty, narcissistic, intentionally malicious parents out there, and that is horrifying. They are truly few in number, however. And, every time someone feels inadequate, doubts herself, or feels "not good enough" (I do not know a woman alive including me, who has never had such feelings), it is not simply because some parent (usually the mother) has been "self-absorbed" and intentionally manipulating, criticizing, or trying to make you feel that way.
My daughter criticized me for not rallying all the resources I could to understand her feelings, see that I am the problem, and that the only thing required is for me to "change." Then, when I saw counselors, and gathered ALL the resources from many perspectives out there that made it clear that relationships are two sided requiring self-scrutiny and changes on both sides, I was criticized for "just trying to impress everyone else with how much I was doing."
Just some thoughts.
8:30 am
May,
In the interest of dialogue and understanding it would be helpful to know more about those other "mediums or approaches". Parents from my generation are not good at reading between the lines or working in code; most of us are pretty pragmatic. That does not mean, however, that we are void of emotion or feeling. We respond to being hurt or wounded like most humans, and being told that we aren't worth any time or effort, and discrediting, or assigning negativity to every response we might make in order to secure us as "toxic parents" is very hurtful. Unfortunately, defensiveness is a natural, albeit not particularly helpful protective mechanism. And honest emotions, which might include tears, are not necessarily anything except a reflection of sadness, sorrow, or pain. Not every tear is some dramatic attempt to manipulate, and it making that leap seems unfair. There is nothing more condescending, demeaning, or obstructive to relationship building than jumping to conclusions about another's intent, mindreading, "psychoanalyzing" from a distance, labeling, or categorizing people. With the exception of those who blatantly inflict physical or sexual abuse, none of us has intentionally set out to hurt our children or any of the others whom we love, and yet we all do it at some time because we are all human. Maybe I don't deserve a 60, 70, or 80th chance. I do know, however, that in the last 62 years, I have always extended that to you. Thank you for your contributions here.
6:51 am
Karen,
I'd just like to express my support
Another Healing Mom,
Often for those of us who have finally taken the last step and cut off our parents it is because we have tried and tried to have reasonable discussions, meaningful conversations and an exchange of idea with no name calling. And what has happened is that our parents have engaged in the complete opposite. They become dramatic, we deal with manipulations, tears, accusations, name calling and a lot of the condescension that Upsi so rightly points out.
Often we have tried over and over to find a different medium, different approach, anything that might get through to our parents. And have been told how wrong, how mean, how ungrateful we are. And we have been worn down
At the end of years of trying, we finally, after much stress, walk away. To save ourselves.
I had a very similar conversation with my father at one point to the one Karen talks about in which she realizes that she knows her parents "love her but will never change because we do not know how we sound". In mine I finally said to my father that we needed to stop the conversation because he simply couldn't hear anything I was saying. My father is so caught up in "his" life, his point of view, his defensiveness, that he litereally can't hear me. It's sad but it's the reality.
You said: "People have to know specifics about what they are doing that is offensive before they can make changes–not just have general terms" I agree, but when you have given them the specifics and nothing changes?
Some of us are just tired. Plain tired. And as adults ourselves, we have careers, families, partners, who quite honestly deserve to take priority over parents who are toxic, uncaring, and undeserving of chance 60, 70 or 80
So we choose to protect ourselves and our families.
11:20 am
Upsi,
There is, indeed, much support available to and for Karen and all the rest of our children. As parents, who want to understand but find it difficult when we are excluded from reasonable discussion, and meaningful conversation. We all appreciate a healthy, balanced exchange of ideas that allows for the presentation of all perspectives, leaves out name calling or emotionally charged verbiage, and the presumption that anyone has the power to know another's intentions. Therefore, it is disheartening and discouraging when others find it necessary to interpret comments like Healing Mom's for Karen. The commentary on your blog demonstrates the labeling, out of context semantic dissection, name calling and biased, inflammatory ideation that feeds anger, hate, and divisiveness rather than fosters the healthy dialogue that could lead to healing and reconciliation for those who truly want it. There is no condescension here–just observation.
We would all like to understand our children better, and we would, in turn, appreciate being understood. If as Karen has suggested she knows that we "love her but will never change because we do not know how we sound", then yes, it seems pretty obvious that no change can or will happen as long as she is unwilling to discuss the situation. People have to know specifics about what they are doing that is offensive before they can make changes–not just have general terms ("they are critical"–well, how are they critical?) and psychobabble ("passive-aggressive"–what makes you say that?) tossed about. Since there are always multiple participants in a conversation with as many different perspectives, both the sender and the receivers need to be open to tempering their reactions and clarifying differences of opinion. None of us has ever claimed to be perfect, we know we have made and will continue to make mistakes along the way, and we need feedback and some margin for error along the way in our relearning–particularly those of us in our "sixties" and beyond.
Even if you do not care to heal or reconcile with your parents, please do not make assumptions, judgments or generalizations about others, plant negativity, or slant things to fit your own agenda for those of us who are trying the best we know how to reclaim our families.
8:30 am
Karen, thank you for sharing your experience.
We support you.
http://upsi-upsi.blogspot.com/…..d-her.html
5:55 pm
Karen, thank you for posting. It helps me to understand some of what may be going through my es and dl minds. They cut off dl parents first, now me. I would like to say that I am also a daughter too and have a mother that is in her 70's who has alzheimer's. You want to talk difficult. My mother has no filters. But you know what, I do everything I can to help her and make her happy. One of the many reasons that I do that is because I watched her do those things for her own mother. I may not have always had the best relationship with her and she may not have always been my best friend, but she did the best she could. I thought that I taught my son some of the same family values. My es now has a 2.5 year old son of his own. I shudder to think what they are teaching him. It appears their message to him is that family is to be used and then discarded when you have taken all you need from them. I disagree. Family is unconditional love and support. Family is also exceedingly dysfunctional. We have learned to have fun with our family dysfunction and love each other in spite of it (well, all but my es and dl). My sister-in-law says they are missing the blessing and I suspect you are too. I honestly would appreciate your feedback. Perhaps if we can keep talking we can all find ways to help each other.
2:12 pm
"Karen",
It would be most helpful to know what terrible, unforgivable sins your parents commited, how you "tried over the years", and whether or not they have or had any idea about your feelings or perceptions before you simply gave them their walking papers. Did you have an adult discussion using principles of good conflict resolution, attempt to view all perspectives, or did you just withdraw in silence and/or erupt in a tirade of accusations encompassing the last 30 years expecting them to recall events but not to be shell shocked or defensive? Did you give them concrete suggestions of what you wanted, along with opportunities to comply, provide not only negative, but positive feedback, and some allowance for error as they tried to accomodate you? Or did you just say "change or else", and then refuse to have contact with them taking away any opportunity for improvement of the relationship.
Sexual or physical abuse is one thing, and I am quite sure parents know if they did those things. However, in this day and age the term "emotional abuse" has little meaning or credibility since everyone who has any self-doubt or some challenge to his/her self esteem now seems to believe he/she has somehow been "parentally abused or manipulated". Likely we have numerous popculture "shrinks" who are steeped in outdated Freudian concepts of parents as the root of all ones problems to thank for that. If your parents grave sin is that they used shame or guilt as disciplinary tools (probably how they were raised or what they were familiar with), then do you really think the punishment you are exacting fits the crime? None of us goes through life without some self-doubt or self-esteem issues–we just grow up and gain perspective without trying to blame others for our own feelings.
Different people come from and will have varied viewpoints or interpretations of words and situations. Whose is right? Is your way the only way to view things, or could there be other ways to see things? Humans are neither omniscient nor mind readers, and everyone's perspective or story deserves to be heard. Lest you be too critical of your parents treatment of you (barring sexual or physical abuse), it would behoove you to reflect upon your treatment of them as you are, apparently, an adult now yourself at age 38. Have you offered them the respect, kindness, and consideration you demand for yourself, particularly in the way you have handled this? Or have you condescended to them, looked at how your own reactions or behaviors have contributed to the situation (relationships are not one-sided), thrown a childish tantrum while demanding to be treated as an adult, or been "abusive to them". Trust is a two-way path. Perhaps, your approach has destroyed their trust in you, as well.
No, parents don't own children, and I am pretty sure that most do not want to. Maybe you don't believe you owe your parents anything. However, those of us raised in Judeo-Christian tradition have been taught otherwise. You don't have to agree with or be "friends" with your parents, but you are obliged to honor, respect and treat them at least as well as you wish to be treated yourself.
It is always good to take care of oneself–at least temporarily. Doing so while destroying others is, however, nothing but pure narcissism. And, it is ironic that many adult children are calling their parents narcissists and then behaving in nothing but narcissitic ways. So do take care of yourself, and remember that this is not about winning or losing, because as long as you and your parents are at odds, everyone loses.
8:39 pm
It's possible that life was a bed of roses with your kids. It's possible you tried your best and made mistakes. It's also very possible that the mistakes you made were big ones. Physical, sexual and emotional abuse are epidemic in our society, so it's no surprise that estrangement is epidemic also. The spiritual and emotional violence has deep and lasting effects that are transmitted down through generations. For myself, I am estranged from my parents and this is a big part of why. It took a long time for the denial to wear off and for me to face it, took the better part of three decades. I'm not interested in talking about it with them. I doubt they remember it the way I do, and I'm not sure they would admit to any of it even if they did. Like many of you, they are confused and hurt and wondering why. I feel bad about that, but the problem is it's not all in the past. They treat me in a way I don't like in the present. They are good people and it's clear they love me but they are also negative, critical, pushy and passive-aggressive. Unconditional love is for children. If you want an adult relationship with your child, both parties need to relate to each other with kindness and respect. There needs to be trust that isn't broken. There needs to be a healthy respect for boundaries. You don't own your children, and they don't owe you a single thing. It took many, many years for me to reach a point where I had enough. I did try along the way. I'm tired of trying now. I believe my parents don't even know how they sound when they talk to me, it seems mindless and habitual. I don't believe they are going to ever change, they are in their 60's now. For a long time I put up with it solely because they are my parents and I love them. But I'm done now, because I had to make a choice. Do what's best for them, and hurt me, or do what's best for me, and hurt them. For 38 years I chose them. Now I'm finally choosing what's best for me.
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